PH Buffer, Die Die must. Period. Options

[desireless]

I'm not too convinced that BB is not there at pH6.  Arowana keepers maintain their water at that level as well.  Although I have never encounted this situation, but I do think that pH shock is stressful especially 2pH jump.

I won't dare to say for sure that at pH6 there's no BB. That's why I use 'MIGHT'.

What we have is only a chart of 25 degrees celsius. Who knows at a certain temperature, the ammonium-to-ammonia conversion point is at pH6.5? At the right ammonia ppm, your fishes will say bye-bye in the process of you tuning up your pH. Why would you want to subject your fishes to this danger? Like I say, your fish could be stressed by the pH shock. but ammonia poisoning is FATAL.

[desireless]

I think 2 pH jump can kill.Thats 100 times difference in acidity / alkalinity.

Like I say, before I knew about pH buffer and BB stuffs, I only have this pH pen to determine the pH. And I ever left my fishes in below pH6 for 2 days. But "good thing" was, I practise 100% water change whenever my water turns murky. And the fishes are still alive today. Imagine the shock the fishes were under-going. From pH5.5 to pH8.3. That's more than 2 and it bypass the neutral from Acidic to Alkali.

I share the same sentiments,though my example is at the other end,marine tanks.
Their pH are always above 8,and BBs are thriving as well.

Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter are just a general name for 2 groups Beneficial bacteria. There are many many types of bacteria under the Nitrobacter group and many many type under the Nitrosomonas group. What I have quoted in my previous post is for GOLDFISHES. Not Cichlid, not aro, not koi, not chicken.

[supzfier]

As one of those who dont practice buffering because i dont even understand the concept, i decided to try "buffering" (the one i assumed it is) for myself in my old tank because i saw the few fishes i newly bought for hundred bucks sink to the bottom when i introduced them into the quarantine tank. (i assume they are affected by either pH or the journey)

Althought i never buffer, i never have any problems with my fishes, maybe cause i do wc regularly?

After i read the forums and dug up old posts to check the contents of buffering, i was given the impression that due to the sudden change of pH level due to the difference pH between the new water and old water, the fishes will experience a shock. What i understand was that BS is added to up the pH to stabilise the pH level to similar levels for the new water. . So prior to the further discussions that followed 2 days ago, i was determined to join in the practice of "buffering". slowly, i added BS into my old tank (not QT) slowly over a few hours slowly to up the pH. from pH 6.0 to pH 7.5. Over the period, i took notice of any reaction to the fishes, but fortunately i do not see any much difference in their reaction. Although im not sure if there will be no reaction anyway. Afterwhich i changed the water, (pH of my water is around 7.5)

Thus, after reading the posts that followed, this poster is still pretty puzzled that we should buffer the new water to higher levels instead of the old water, which will cause more pH difference? thought buffering was to stabilise the pH

my fishes are well currently, still continuing to read posts in this topic to clarify myself

This post has been edited by supzfier: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:22 am

[jhansolo]

my fishes are well currently

That is good continue to monitor, but your method of raising pH slowly on the same day is not much of help as most product recommend the pH difference of not more than 0.5 per day.

As for desireless method ... I just like to stress that I'm just speaking my mind as that is what I'll do as seriously there are so many variables so there is no really a right or wrong method.

[desireless]

....
What i understand was that BS is added to up the pH to stabilise the pH level to similar levels for the new water.   . So prior to the further discussions that followed 2 days ago, i was determined to join in the practice of "buffering".
...

Hi supzfier,

You see, I kept stressing some points:

- Purpose of pH buffering is to STABILIZE the pH in your water, not to raise it. Meaning you can keep the pH in your water at it's original value for a long time.

- You can add SB as much as you like from pH5 to pH9 or whatever, but can your fish take it? For 1, there's a pH shock. For 2, there's a possibility of ammonia poisoning. For 3 (and I see you keep overlooking this), you are adding TOO MUCH SB such that your kH could be as much as 10 degrees and over. This is why I keeping mentioning, "at most you can add is up to 5dkH" in my previous posts. From the test that I did with photos, IF you add the correct amount of SB to raise the Carbonate Hardness kH to 5 degrees, there's only a raise of 0.5pH from pH6.9 to pH7.4. So meaning to say, if you have added SB to make your old water from pH6 to pH7.5, you're adding too much SB already!

- Don't mix up "pH boost" with "pH buffering". The former (which is so not recommended for goldfishes) is achieved by adding coral chips and it will boost up your pH. The latter, is achieved by adding SB and it will maintain your pH at same value for longer time, than without buffering

- 1 oxycure level spoon level or 2g of SB raises 20 litres of water to 5dkH. To buffer 10litres, use half spoon. To buffer 100 litres, add 5 spoons. To buffer 150 litres, add 7 and half spoons. For 250 litres, add 12 and half spoons. Doing any of these, your final water will be pH-buffered at Carbonate Hardness of 5dkH.

[supzfier]

enlightened

[iso7012003]

Post splitted from here.

===
Dear HappyBuddha,

"I dosed 2 g of baking soda to bring the pH up to 7.8"

Where to buy this baking soda that you used to bring up the PH level? Is it industrial use product or just the regular one that we can buy from supermarket?

Thanks

[desireless]

Hi,

Baking Soda is "Sodium BiCarbonate". Please read this thread for a better understanding of pH buffering.

In our country Singapore, we got it at a certain 'dried food' store chain called "Phoon Huat". I don't know about Hong Kong but I am sure this powder is easily available there too. Try those dried food stores that sells confectionary stuff (those you will need to bake cakes and stuffs) like vanilla powder, baking powder, as such.

[The Matrix]

碳酸氢钠。又名小蘇打粉。

糕點制造商該有。慢慢搵啦。

[iso7012003]

Thanks a lot

[Bandit]

Hi,

Newbie hereafter reading the super long posting 4pages I still dont quite understand.

Hope some old birds can give me advice

Just started rearing goldfish this week. Configuration is as follow

2 feet tank, OHF (Dolphin brand pump CR8800), white filter mat'l bought at LFS, Cosmo surface skimmer, 6 med size oranda.

What's the definition of PH crash?
How to prevent PH crash?
What are the chances of goldfish survicing PH crash?
What should be administer to the goldfish who suffer the PH crash ordeal?

What's the definition of PH shock?
How to prevent PH shock?

Whats the definition of PH buffering?
Is PH buffering only applicable for Bio filtration?

Is it possible to setup BB on my OHF and how do I go abt doing it?
What is cannister? is it same as OHF but using different filtration?

Sorry for the long list of question.

[jowy_ham]

Me also newbie here, but would like to try answer your Qs so that I can learn as well ( Older bros here please and do correct me if I'm wrong ) and also gauge my understanding of pH buffering.

2 feet tank, OHF (Dolphin brand pump CR8800),  white filter mat'l bought at LFS, Cosmo surface skimmer, 6 med size oranda.[/

, I do not know what is the standard dimension of tanks ( cos I'm using tubs ), but a calculation of a 2ft x 1ft x 2ft tank will only hold ~100L of water which is way below the recommended amount of water for 6 med size orandas. In other words, U are overstock !!!

The recommended amount of water per goldfish here is AT LEAST 50L per fish.

What's the definition of PH crash?
How to prevent PH crash?
What are the chances of goldfish survicing PH crash?
What should be administer to the goldfish who suffer the PH crash ordeal?

- pH crash is a sudden drop in pH ( maybe from 8 to 5/4 or even lower ) due to the lack of pH buffering.
- cannot answer your 2nd Q cos never experience it before ( and touchwood, dont want it to happen also ) but I think if the crash is not too bad ( meaning the drop is not too drastic ) and actions are taken immdiately to rectify the situation ( change water ), then the chances of surviving is higher.
- nothing, change water IMMEDIATELY

What's the definition of PH shock?
How to prevent PH shock?

- pH shock is the goldfish having to switch from 1 pH ( maybe from pH 5 ) to another pH within a short period of time ( to pH 8 ). Could be from higher to lower pH also.
- Gradually accustom your goldfish to the increase in pH. Maybe having some pH 5 water mixed with some pH 8 water ( balance out the pH abit ) then put the goldfish in this mid-range pH water for a while ( maybe 1/2 day to 1 day ) before releasing it in pH 8 water. <- jus my wild thinking

Whats the definition of PH buffering?
Is PH buffering only applicable for Bio filtration?

- pH buffering is to stablized the pH/reduce the amount of pH dropped over the days before the next water change.
- No, cos I know green water that some bros practice also needs pH buffering.

Is it possible to setup BB on my OHF and how do I go abt doing it?
What is cannister? is it same as OHF but using different filtration?

- Yes, why not. There are a few ways :
1. Buy expensive BB liquid and pour into your tank ( speed up the cycling process )
2. Bring some cycled media from another tank to your tank ( not recommended as disease might be brought over as well )
3. Do more often water changes and let the tank cycled itself ( maybe of instead once per week, change that to once every 3~4 days )

- A cannister is just another filteration system
- Yes

OK, old forumers/bros/masters, U guys can shoot me now but I newbie hor, dont shoot till i lie dead hor

[desireless]

>>2 feet tank, OHF (Dolphin brand pump CR8800), white filter mat'l bought at LFS, Cosmo surface skimmer, 6 med size oranda.
Too overstocked. And Orandas grow very fast. Get a bigger tank. Even 4-footer is too small for 6 orandas.

>> What's the definition of PH crash?
pH go down till below 7 to acidic area.
Simple summary: Ammonia at low pH becomes harmless ammonium which is harmless to your fishes. But when you perform partial water change, the traces of ammonium converts back to ammonia (which is lethal) and bring about ammonia poisoning to your fishes. Most of the time this process is fatal.

>> How to prevent PH crash?
Buffer your water with BS. You can sustain the same pH for a longer time. In simple word, locking the pH so that it doesn't swing much... for a longer time than with buffering.

>> What are the chances of goldfish survicing PH crash?
As little as zero. Lucky surviving ones will need TLC to recover.

>> What should be administer to the goldfish who suffer the PH crash ordeal?
TLC: Tender, Love & Care . Put it in a QT tank with JYP and make sure you change water everyday.

>> What's the definition of PH shock?
You bring in a fish from another environment of pH 6 and put inside a new tank of pH8. Confirm pH shock.

>> How to prevent PH shock?
Need a pH pen to determine pH in both waters. Difference of +/- pH of 3 0.3 should still be ok.

>> Whats the definition of PH buffering?
Read and understand this thread thoroughly

>> Is PH buffering only applicable for Bio filtration?
Applicable but not only to. It is in fact applicable to any type of filtration used.

>> Is it possible to setup BB on my OHF and how do I go abt doing it?
Yes. Leaving the tank running for 2 weeks should be able to build enough BB to last. I don't do this as I am using Sponge filter and this is how I cycle them. Bro cpiw has a good thread on OHF:
http://www.RafflesGold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1901

>> What is cannister? is it same as OHF but using different filtration?
Those common Ehiem/Jebao filter are in canister form.

>> Sorry for the long list of question.
No problem.

This post has been edited by desireless: Fri, 04 Mar 2005 3:08 pm

[desireless]

...
OK, old forumers/bros/masters, U guys can shoot me now  but I newbie hor, dont shoot till i lie dead hor 

Very good! A Star!!

[jowy_ham]

Thank you, Thank you

Glad to know that most of my answers are almost correct after spending 1 yr in this forum