Underwater Gravels - Yes Or No?, Bare Tank Vs Tank With Gravel Options

[gohks]

----Post splitted from 'Trojan's SVR'-------


There is a long debate of harm or benefits of sand/pebbles bed and I think this subjectivity still stays. Having the pebbles bed infact is good if it is setup correctly and infact will minimize your chore of water change (practical for minimum water change). I have tried both and let me share with you my own experience:-
i) I used to have a bare tank (6ft) with just goldfishes powered by external overhead and canister filter (both mechanical & bological setup). No pebbles or rocks were in there as I believed it causes maintainence headache (usual believe).Greedy guy like me tend to overstock the fishes (don't like to disclose the no. as it against the practice here). I found to have great trouble maintaing the tank. The water condition is always cloudy and brownish (think insufficient biological bateria thriving) no matter how often I changed it (goldfishes are damn dirty animal!). Imagine I have to do at leat 50 - 100% water change weekly on a 6ft tank, that is really a task for a busy and amateur guy like me.
ii) After much consultation and research, some guru recommend me to have undergraval filter covered with pebbles (pebbles much be right size, not to cause any hazard to the goldfish). As I am dead tired of maintaing and upkeeping the tank, I decided to give it a try. I added in the under-graval filter powered by a strong power-head, in addition to the external filter I have. To my very surprise, the water stays crystal cleared after stablization, even with the same amount of fishes and no matter how much I fed them (with any kind of food that may cloud the water!!). I think the beneficial baterial has thrived well on the pebbles bed, much oxygenated by the water-flow through the undergraval filter and the bed. However, I still have one headache, the pebbles/sands are very difficult to maintain, debrics stuck and I have to vacuum the bed frequently.
iii) Fed-up of this tedious chore, I did more research and found the "Reversed flow" methodology (must be used with the external filter) (instead of sucking the water from the undergraval filter, it pumping water into it, forcing the debrics out to be filter by external filters) and this really works for me!! However, debrics still can be pumped into the bottom graval plate and could choke the system.
iv) Lately, I further improved by changing to two-way powerhead (flows can be reversed) to pump and suck routinely, to counter the aboves debrics accumumation problem. I also added in a UV light ozonizer to get rid of the algae problem (my water very purified and cleared after this addition).

Currently, I change water rarely, just need to top-up the water lost and clean the algae on the glass and are very happy with my current setup (with an overly stocked tank!!). My water conditions are maintained at:-
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: 0 (I added some hardy plants and have algae/mosses on the rocks to elimiate that).
PH: 8.5
Salinity: 0.18%
Temp: 29 - 30C

I strongly believe in biological/mechanical filtration (no chemical means). Very importantly, the beneficial baterial must thrive well. The UV light ozonizer (previoulsy used mainly for outdoor ponds) is also needed. All these lead to a "Crysal Cleared" tank + Minimum maintainance!!

I wrote this not to stir-up a debate, but just to share on some of my success story. This methodology is my personal preference and proven to work for me. I promote practicality here for amateur and busy hobbiest who have other committment. Cannot imagine having to do 50 - 100% water change weekly for a > 4ft tank, or having a green water in a flat, just to upkeep the fish (cannot sustain and sooner or later you will feel tire of this hobby and think of giving up, believed some of the brothers here are having the same kind of feeling). ;)

This post has been edited by CP: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:55 pm

[koolbeep]

Hi, this was a nice thread...

Can you describe more on "two-way powerhead"? I cant imagine how it looks like

[gohks]

Hi, this was a nice thread...

Can you describe more on "two-way powerhead"?    I cant imagine how it looks like 

Koolbeep,
I could not show you the packaging as I already discarded. I got it from a large LFS in Yishun for less then $50/-. It looks not very different from normal powerhead but with an additional turning nob to control the direction of flow.

[goldrush]

Dear gohks

An initial setup of a sub gravel filtration system will give beautiful crystal clear water with negative ammonia,nitrite and contained nitrate readings.Now what we are concerned are not the aerobic beneficial bacteria but the emergence of anaerobics in time to come.These anaerobic pockets may occur anywhere within the sand sediments or in substrate with thick mulms.Periodic water changes can only dilute toxins produced.Of chief concern would be hydrogen sulphide.In areas of reduced oxygen facultative bacteria respire by using sulphur instead of using oxygen liberating the infamous hydrogen sulphide(german gas or pui) in return which are very toxic to your fishes.Now all these processes occur in dynamism over time and are cumulative in effect as such we do not advocate substrate or sub gravel filtration especially in goldfish culture as they are prolific feeder, constant shitter and our tendency to overfeed and overstock.Such sins are eminent in our human malpractice.Apart from causing toxic releases these anaerobic bacteria are culprits of causing a host of all commonly encountered bacterial ailments like reddening,ulceration ,fin ,tail and mouth rot and infact most of internal bacterial infection.
So be vigilant of this danger if any still insist and persist in subgravel filtration practice.


regards

goldrush

[gohks]

Dear gohks

An initial setup of a sub gravel filtration system will give beautiful crystal clear water with negative ammonia,nitrite and contained nitrate readings.Now what we are concerned are not the aerobic beneficial bacteria but the emergence of anaerobics in time to come.These anaerobic pockets may occur anywhere within the sand sediments or in  substrate with thick mulms.Periodic water changes can only dilute toxins produced.Of chief concern would be hydrogen sulphide.In areas of reduced oxygen facultative bacteria respire by using sulphur instead of using oxygen liberating the infamous hydrogen sulphide(german gas or pui) in return which are very toxic to your fishes.Now all these processes occur in dynamism over time and are cumulative in effect as such we do not advocate substrate or sub gravel filtration especially in goldfish culture as they are prolific feeder, constant shitter and our tendency to overfeed and overstock.Such sins are eminent in our human malpractice.Apart from causing toxic releases these anaerobic bacteria are culprits of causing a host of all commonly encountered  bacterial ailments like reddening,ulceration ,fin ,tail and mouth rot and infact most of internal bacterial infection.
So be vigilant of this danger if any still insist and persist in subgravel filtration practice.
regards

goldrush

Dear Goldrush,
Thks for your valuable advise. Will keep vigilant of the ailments you mentioned (so far so good, fatality has been quite low (keeping my fingers X) for the past 3 yrs when I changed my tank to current system. Do get the external parasit once a while but was able to heal with medication. Few of my fatality are internal parasite cases like the incurable dropsy and swim bladder decease (I will euthanase them as they are terminal). FYI one thing I really like about my current system is I can afford to feed my goldfish 5 - 6 times a day (with huge amount of all kind of variety of food and their appetite are always good!) without having to worry about fouling and clouding the water which I used to get with a bare tank. With this, my goldfish get beefed up and more resistance to deceases and perhaps balance up the negative effect of my setup. Also mentioned, I am a guy who cannot resist temptation of buying and tend to over-crowd with regrets (I have an overstocked tank of ~ 50 goldfish (lost count!!) of various types and sizes (6 - 20cm).

I would like to give my goldfish tip-top living condition by having to do regular 100% water change (still not sure that is really good as it keeps disturbing the balance condition of the tank with your fishes need to adapt), or renting a pond with green water (I am a strong believer as my parents/grandparents used to keep goldfish that way) but for a damn busy and aging guy like me just have to compromise my fish living conditions with the minimum maintainence for practicality. I really admire some bros here on their strong committment and can even go to the extend of breeding their own line )

You will be shocked if I tell you my maintenance schedule:-
1) Bi-Weekly maintenance:- topping up the water losses, cleaning the glasses.
2) Quarterly check:- Water parameters.
3) Half yearly maintenace:- cleaning the external filter medium.
4) Yearly maintenance:- vacuuming the sand bed (hate to do that!).

In short, I like keeping and grooming goldfish, but just hate doing the maintenance job.

[The Matrix]

Gohks, the topic comes with a question Yes or No ? quite interestingly, you have put up something that is opposing to many in this forum - bare tank setup. In fact, i also really wanted to have a good nice setup with lots of solid fish swimming inside.

Going thru your postings, I find you have a sound understanding of your setup and what you have planned to do. Good for you indeed !

Keep it up and hey, let us admire 50 fishes in a tank !!!!

[gohks]

Gohks, the topic comes with a question Yes or No ? quite interestingly, you have put up something that is opposing to many in this forum - bare tank setup. In fact, i also really wanted to have a good nice setup with lots of solid fish swimming inside.

Going thru your postings, I find you have a sound understanding of your setup and what you have planned to do. Good for you indeed !

Keep it up and hey, let us admire 50 fishes in a tank !!!!

Matrix,
Would like to apologize if I opposed the usual practice and preaching here. My whole intention is to share and X-learn (frankly I also learn alot after discovery of RG lately, should have realized there is this local goldfish informational/forum sites much earlier I always serve other sites (mostly western) but found not very suitable).
I would like to declare I arrive at the current system through hardways of learning, consultation and referring. I am a pure amateur hobbyist who have a 6ft tank (stocked up with fishes, with sand bed, rocks, drift wood, plantation, conceallation cabinate, spent 5K setting up and would share with bros with digcam pictures soon) in the living room (my tank formed part of partition wall). Frankly I could not do much frequent water changes as my boss would be disturbed. . I also don't breed, select or groom fishes for competition.
In short, this really boils down to personal choice and preference. My way of doing may not be the best but I think it is practical which I preach. Just want to share with bros here who fall under the same category and share my sentiment.

[CP]

Gohks, the topic comes with a question Yes or No ?

I would like to clarify that I am the one who gave this topic title as i had splitted this post from another thread.

[CyberET]

wow! Quick! a photo of your tank! I've always dream of a tank filled with lots of GFs

[gohks]

wow! Quick! a photo of your tank! I've always dream of a tank filled with lots of GFs

okay! okay! let me borrow my wife's digcam (back on Sunday from tour) to snap some pictures to post here. Frankly, 1st time doing this as not so tech savvy

[goldrush]

wow! Quick! a photo of your tank! I've always dream of a tank filled with lots of GFs

LFS tanks full of goldfish leh but turn over also very high

[goldrush]

Let me recap what you have shared with us
50 fish in a six foot undergravel filtered tank with minimal maintenance,overfeeding and overstocked ………….Only one song comes to my mind

that is Ronan Keating:When you say nothing at all


It's amazing
Your tank can speak
Right to my heart
Without saying a word,
It can light us the dark
Try as I may
I could never explain
What I hear when
It don't say a thing………..(logical)




And cp

you say it best when you say nothing at all

[The Matrix]

Matrix,
Would like to apologize if I opposed the usual practice and preaching here.  My whole intention is to share and X-learn (frankly I also learn alot after discovery of RG lately, should have realized there is this local goldfish informational/forum sites much earlier  I always serve other sites (mostly western) but found not very suitable).
I would like to declare I arrive at the current system through hardways of learning, consultation and referring.  I am a pure amateur hobbyist who have a 6ft tank (stocked up with fishes, with sand bed, rocks, drift wood, plantation, conceallation cabinate, spent 5K setting up  and would share with bros with digcam pictures soon) in the living room (my tank formed part of partition wall).  Frankly I could not do much frequent water changes as my boss would be disturbed. .  I also don't breed, select or groom fishes for competition.
In short, this really boils down to personal choice and preference.  My way of doing may not be the best but I think it is practical which I preach.  Just want to share with bros here who fall under the same category and share my sentiment. 

dun worry about being an opposition. I am one myself.

Anyway, I lagi want to see the tank now since it's a partition tank. That's what I have also. A tank that separate the dinning and living hall. It's like a living art piece that changs every second.

Quick quick ... PICTURE !

[gohks]

Let me recap what you have shared with us
50 fish in a six foot undergravel filtered tank with minimal maintenance,overfeeding and overstocked      ………….Only one song comes to my mind

that is Ronan Keating:When you say nothing at all
It's amazing
Your tank can speak
Right to my heart
Without saying a word,
It can light us the dark
Try as I may
I could never explain
What I hear when
It don't say a thing………..(logical)
And cp

you say it best when you say nothing at all

Goldrush,
I would like to declare I commit a greatest sin of overcrowding. Having ~ 50 of them in a tank (I actually make an effort to count yesterday and I think is approximately closed to that - kind of difficult task to accomplish due to the movements of fishes. FYI, I also have never transfer the fishes to any of the tubs during maintenance and have a chance of counting them).
This is due to my greed, temptation and patient as I always like to roam around the LFS in S'pore and buy whatever I like if it is affordable (my budget is always < $50/- per fishes, you can tell the quality I would get ). I am fully aware of the drawback of doing this as it will result in stress and stunted growth, and when there is an outbreak (still keeping vigilent and finger X ), I would be in trouble. BTW, can you enlighten on how to detect hydrogen sulphide as mentioned in your previous thread.
I wish to emphasize that I wrote the threads to share on my tank setup and not the no. of fishes I have. I am a bit concern of seeing some threads where people stinge on feeding because of water clouding and maintenance issue. I am a believer of pumping up the fishes to be resistance to all kind of deceases (as you would never know what exist in the microscopic world, no matter how much you clean or upkeep your tank ). Prevention and having a healthy fish is key and curing is really bandaid and firefighting (how many successful cases we have seen in fixing an internal parasit problem?? Even if it is fixed, fish already weaken and would never live long). Sorry for being long winded here but I just write what I feel.
Lastly, my greatest dream and preference is to have 4 - 6 > 20cm showgrade Ranchu/Ryukin swimming majestcally in my 6 ft tank!!

[gohks]

dun worry about being an opposition. I am one myself. 

Anyway, I lagi want to see the tank now since it's a partition tank. That's what I have also. A tank that separate the dinning and living hall. It's like a living art piece that changs every second.

Quick quick ... PICTURE !

, Matrix,
We are having the same thing . Since no picture yet, let me describe mine a bit here (for imagination ). Half of my tank (3 ft) is jugged out as a partition between dinning and living (that allow 2 ways see through) and the other half is against a wall (I have blacked cereform decorative background). The tank is 6 ft (L) x 2.5 ft (H) x 2 ft (W) flushed with oak colour cabinet from ground to ceiling. This is meant for decorative purpose as to my boss's wish, after I insisted on having a hugh tank in living (due to my craziness of goldfish) - can't have a crude looking filled with dirtied/green water tank in the living right . Hope this gives some idea how it looks like.
BTW, since I have resorted and compromised to minimum mainteance, how you do your upkeep, especially having one in a living?