Ranchu Lover's Grooming Method Options

[The Matrix]

Go your house see ? U pay my taxi fare thru and fro. Isn't a photo faster in the internet than asking many many people going your house ?

So what's the mainstream you have told many ? Com'on, dun tell me u dun have a digicam hor.

In your own words and understanding, what is Intensive Farming method ? What type of farm you are referring to ?

I never come across TungHoi using such method on their farm as big as AngMo Kio estate ....

[Ranchu Lover]

I have already qualify myself at the onset that I am still a 'beginner". I also did not use the word mainstream in any of my comments. Two years into the hobby still makes me a beginner.

My apology once again if you find my method of keeping goldfish too bizarre or out of the norm. I believe that there are other better ways than what I have been doing now. That is why I am still experimenting. I also believe that many many more of my fish will suffer as a result of my experiment. You are at liberty to try it out yourself or not. The choice is yours. If a picture speaks a thousand words, then what more seeing with your own eyes and touching it with your own hands.

Why talk about taxi fare if you think you can benefit from coming to see it yourself. Many have come to my home and I believe have not been disappointed with the trip. I am not charging any admission fee.

Do I owe anyone a favour just because I share some of my keeping method?

[square_guy]

desireless
There are posts going to the extend of rubbishing his methods, frivolous and trying to fool all of us, before the contributor even have a chance to explain further (you know what I meant if you ref to previous posts).  This sort of situation should be moderated before contributors are discouraged from sharing.  Approach of listening first before questioning should be practice.

gohks,

I believe you are referring to me. I am very straight with my posting, one BIG reason for my posting is because RL is telling me "no water change", and immediately on the next sentence he mentioned "flushing with aged water". To me this is BS and he is treating me as an idiot. So specifically, the word "frivolous" is attributable to this point also. If it is a typo mistake on his part, then it is just regrettable.

BUT, I did not rubbish his methods at all. As far as I can seen, no one has rubbished his method either. I am still very interested in a proper discussion (as is happening now).

[desireless]

1. I make use of 6 x 15 litres pails to age my water. I normally collect the tap water and drop in 3 crystals of "hypo" per pail. The water are kept for at least 12 hours under the sun. This will ensure that even the chloramine will all disappear. I use about 3 pails of water to flush the system. I have an over flow system that traps protein and will flush off the protein every time I top up the water in my system. I use a blue water scoope (the one use for bathing) to overflow the system everytime I visit my fish which will always happen in the morning and evening. In days where I have time to "lim kopi", then it will be more often. One more thing I forget is that I always make it a point to siphon off the "shit" from my tub every time I view my fish. That is a minimum of twice to five times a day.

Aging of water was adopted in Singapore back in the 1960s-1970s era when our municipal water contained ONLY chlorine. With the introduction of Chloramine, Water Aging practice can no longer stand. So when you say "4. I age my water.", it is understood by every aquarist as, leaving a volume of tap water for 24 hours until the chlorine within disperse, with no chemical added. So the next time you say this again, please do take note of how someone else can misunderstand you.

"13. I use "hypo"." So you use hypo. Yes, this is effective in breaking down Chloramine. But for your info, the reaction of of Chloramine with with hypo (Sodium Thiosulphate) is almost immediate. There's no need for the 12-hour wait.

In your next coffee session, please tell your coffee friend "I use hypo" instead. Water-aging does not include any use of chemical.

2. I use an auto feeder (actually I have more than 10 auto feeder, I make use of the extra timing plug)). My auto feeder starts feeding at 5.30 am till 9.30 pm. Feeding interval is every hour. In between, I will feed them frozen bloodworm, brine shrimp and daphnia. That is more than 20 feeding per day.

With this feeding routine, I hope your water management skill is up to it. Refer to Matrix's post.

3. I keep all my selected Tikus in my 2 ft glass tank. Why I did that is because they only cost me $1/- each for the smaller one and $2/- for the winning fish. If got problem, then it is a small investment lost. The rest of the Tikus are all in one of the 3 ft tub (about 60 pieces left).  Have been selling them off to a LFS for $0.50 each.

I have always wondered what is your definition of passion?

Your $2 winning tiku, no matter how cheap, is still a winning tiku. Seriously, I won't risk a fish that has won me a prize (it will be my beloved one afterall), just for my "convenience" of putting one type of fish together. When you put a already-quarantined fish with a batch of newly-acquired fish fresh from farm, you are putting it back to square 1.

One winning tiku in my hand is worthed more than 100 new potential tiny ones. Remember this proverb?

This is NOT an 'effective' unorthodoxed practice (as mentioned by gohks) but rather, a thoughtless one.

4. I dont use aeration as in air bubbles. I do not deny that the OHF does cause the water to have some aeration.

Please understand that I am still a "beginner" and still learning and experimenting with different methods. My humble apologies for all who find my method bizzare and weird.

Word of caution. This works for me but might not work for someone else. In my 2 years of keeping goldfish, I have lost numerous fish.

There is a high demand for disssolved oxygen to keep an aquarium working. Your fishes need it. The BB in the OHF and around your tank needs it even more.

Plus it is no secret you overstock your tank to an unmeasurable extend.

Plus your frequency of feeding, which will surely foul your water pretty fast.

...it is no wonder you have lost "numerous" fish.

Think about the feedbacks by the members here. Seriously, give a thought about altering some of your practices. We are all trying to help by pointing out the questionable practices. In contrast to gohks' misunderstanding of "shutting you off"


=====
No, we are not arrogant. No, we are not unfriendly. No, we do not have double standards. No we are certainly not domineering.

This post has been edited by desireless: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 3:09 am

[desireless]

From what I understand from you guys is a 50%, 90% or 100% water change. What I believe in is to keep the water as constant as possible like very small amount of water change. If I have a choice in the future, I would prefer a constant flush of between 3% to 5% water flushing daily.

I still have no idea of what this system is about. But a point for you to take note of is the building up of nitrate in your tank. If you do not have a de-nitrating mechanism, Nitrate builds up in AP. It's just going to add on and on if you do not adopt 100% change or do something about it.

For example if you do weekly 50% water change,

Starts with 0ppm Nitrate
10ppm added everyday. On the 7th day you change 50%. Tank left with 35ppm in the water.

After 1st WC, starts with 35ppm
10ppm added everyday. On the 7th day you change 50%. Tank left with 52.5ppm in the water.

After 2nd WC, starts with 52.5ppm
10ppm added everyday. On the 7th day you change 50%. Tank left with 122.5ppm in the water.

After 3rd WC, starts with 122.5ppm,
...and so on....

That is the workout if you do 50% water change weekly. Sorry that I do not comprehend your system. But if you think that water condition can stay constant, have a second thought about it.

My view is that it is very important to rid the system of the discharge from the fish ASAP. Waste from the gills, shit, body slime etc. all needs to be eliminated ASAP.

No comment on that, since it is your preference to do the hard way.

MY clear water system (with no wall algae - I cleared it ):
It works on bio sponge filter.
Feeding is on Autofeeder 5 times a day-pellets. BW when I am free.
At 7th day, the nitrate is usually at the 80ppm. 100% WC
Back to 0-20ppm, routine repeats as it is.
No need to suck out any kind of discharge.

This system is being used extensively in Intensive farming methods. The only problem is that it will also build up the water current which is not suitable for goldfish keeping. Therefore, that is why I use the traditional siphon method.

Maybe the thais work this way. Someone who has been to a Chinese farm would tell you a different story. Mind you the chinese has been into goldfish for centuries.

In Singapore, the entire water network system will be using chloramine to treat the water. When you use "hypo" what is left in the water is ammonia. By sunning the water, the formation of algae will rid the water of ammonia. That is why the pails that I use for aging water has lots of algae growth on its sides. For those who have visited me will notice that the pails that I use are transparent pails.

I am using hypo too. And yes after breaking down chloramine, the by-product is ammonia. But as mentioned above, I am very confident of my bio filtration. The removal of ammonia is exactly the work of this bio filter.
So now I have a better understanding of your pail method. So you allow algae to do the work for you. But why wait 12 hours later, when you could have allowed some 15mins to half an hour for your filters to work on the ammonia?

Objective reached but if you can fly east of Singapore to reach Japan, why is there a need to travel West, having to bypass India, Africa, America, then finally Japan?

Is there any other reasons that you have not mentioned to justify the sunning method, which takes so much more time and effort?

[square_guy]

For discussion purposes:

1. Sunning of dechlorinated water in a algae-lined pail.
Technically workable if purpose is to remove minute ammonia trace. I believe someone made some calculations and the resultant ammonoia ppm is really quite small. Need to make sure water is sunned a couple of hours. IMO, using the water direct and making use of the biofilter is easier and of negligible harm due to the minute amount of ammonia.

2. Targetted daily 3% to 5% water flush.
Need to make sure nitrate build-up can be offsetted sufficiently. Without bothering about the precise calculation, seems like Desireless is correct. Not sustainable if nitrate is building up in a conventional manner.

I think it may be possible (on paper) if nitrate is NOT ALLOWED to accumulate conventionally.
a) Protein skimming MIGHT assist. I do not have references for the amount of protein secreted and its proportion wrt to the total carbon waste. However protein skimming is widely acknowledged to work much more efficiently in salt water. I suspect its efficiency in fresh water, but again I do not have concrete references.
b) Denitrator might assist. But denitration is a controversial issue for a normal hobbyist and RL did not mention usage of one.

[The Matrix]

For discussion purposes:

1. Sunning of dechlorinated water in a algae-lined pail.
Technically workable if purpose is to remove minute ammonia trace. I believe someone made some calculations and the resultant ammonoia ppm is really quite small. Need to make sure water is sunned a couple of hours. IMO, using the water direct and making use of the biofilter is easier and of negligible harm due to the minute amount of ammonia.

2. Targetted daily 3% to 5% water flush.
Need to make sure nitrate build-up can be offsetted sufficiently. Without bothering about the precise calculation, seems like Desireless is correct. Not sustainable if nitrate is building up in a conventional manner.

I think it may be possible (on paper) if nitrate is NOT ALLOWED to accumulate conventionally.
a) Protein skimming MIGHT assist. I do not have references for the amount of protein secreted and its proportion wrt to the total carbon waste. However protein skimming is widely acknowledged to work much more efficiently in salt water. I suspect its efficiency in fresh water, but again I do not have concrete references.
b) Denitrator might assist. But denitration is a controversial issue for a normal hobbyist and RL did not mention usage of one.

RIGHT ON TARGET !

1. Ammonia broke down from the chloramines in our tap water is not a major concern. Placing water under sun to get rid of chloramines is never, chemically, technically, physically TRUE. Give me a break ...

Yes, the algae works better and no need to say, Algae is the best nature protector.

2. Desireless and yourself speak of something highly accurate. BUT .....

Did we assume that the filter is working in the first place ?
Without aeration or minimum aeration, u think the filter working or not ? Working, maybe, but will not be efficient lor.
If the filter is not working, what would be the end result in RL's practise ?

3. Without pic, now all of us got to go lim kopi. We can only make wild guesses ... denitrator, protein skimmer, overflow flush ....

Did anyone here say our methods are the norm ? No leh ... who is the norm now ?

Give u guys another thing to ponder ... 3-5% in a 2ft tank, max of 50L. Not more than 1.5-2.5L a day in the mentioned method.

Now, with regular clearing of waste elements, how much more of water displacement ? Nothing mentioned.

Certain protein are soluble. By water displacement in minute amount to rid of such protein is somewhat doubtful. Any means of measurement to proof ?

[gohks]

Since no pictures, only can make speculation and calculated guess. From RL's past threads, he mentioned that his tanks got lots of sunlight (I presume outdoor) and if you look at the limited pictures he shows us, there are plenty of algae coated on walls and bottom. Therefore, I think his system is something between cycled cleared and green water type. That may answer why he does not have nitrate problem with his water change schedule. I am presuming his OHF is a heavy bio type that can take the heavy bio load (if the no. of fishes he mentioned in a 2ft tank is true). Besides the space, I would presume his fishes are doing very well in a cleared water thick algae tank with plenty of sunlight.

[gohks]

The reason why fish stop growing is because of hormones build-up in the water. Hormones are protein. That is why it is very important to rid the system of protein.

Folks,
Any comment on RL's above statement.

[Kinder]

Therefore, I think his system is something between cycled cleared and green water type.  That may answer why he does not have nitrate problem with his water change schedule.  I am presuming his OHF is a heavy bio type that can take the heavy bio load (if the no. of fishes he mentioned in a 2ft tank is true). 

Trying to figure out what you meant above. I assume that the waste produced (in huge quantities; A: by heavy feeding & B: High Stocking of the fish) would be shared by the BB in the OHF filter and Algae found on the walls. But still the end result from the filter would be processed Nitrate and i dont see that Nitrate going anywhere but remaining in the system. Unless if the wall algae is more dominant and is processing bulk of the waste produced for its survival.

Correct me if im wrong, im just making an effort to learn.

Cheers
Kinder

[gohks]

You would be surprise the green stuffs can create wonder, just that your tank will be unsightly.

Another thing which puzzle me is this situation will create O2 starvation at night, since he mentioned no addition areation added with this amount of load. Unless his OHF is creating enough pertubation, think there is high risk in this sort of setup.

This post has been edited by gohks: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 1:25 pm

[square_guy]

Continuing the speculation.......

Folks,
Any comment on RL's above statement. 

I am not sure hormones = protein. Carbon-based, yes. I recalled reading articles on the net (and probably postings here) that mentioned the growth-retarding effect of certain hormones when fishes are crowded. Can't remember already.

Trying to figure out what you meant above. I assume that the waste produced (in huge quantities; A: by heavy feeding & B: High Stocking of the fish) would be shared by the BB in the OHF filter and Algae found on the walls. But still the end result from the filter would be processed Nitrate and i dont see that Nitrate going anywhere but remaining in the system. Unless if the wall algae is more dominant and is processing bulk of the waste produced for its survival.

Cheers
Kinder

Like Matrix mentioned, efficiency of filter could be low due to possibly low DO. But is difficult to say for sure the end result is nitrate. Different types of algae have different affinity for food (nitrate or ammonia). Assuming heavy feeding in a small 2ft tank with algae with the said water-change amount and interval, my guess (based on personal experience and feedback from other people) is that is it impossible to control the nitrate.

No exact buffering figure is given. Again, impossible to be sure pH is at optimal level for filter.

You would be surprise the green stuffs can create wonder, just that your tank will be unsightly.

Another thing which puzzle me is this situation will create O2 starvation at night, since he mentioned no addition areation added with this amount of load.  Unless his OHF is creating enough pertubation, think there is high risk in this sort of setup.

Green stuff may create wonder, but is no magic bullet too. It can only do so much.

OHF is creating slight pertubation, I doubt it is enough for the filter alone. There is definitely a high risk of O2 starvation at night with the addition of the algae.

End of day, only more speculation with no real and new content to contribute to forum.

[gohks]

I am not sure hormones = protein. Carbon-based, yes. I recalled reading articles on the net (and probably postings here) that mentioned the growth-retarding effect of certain hormones when fishes are crowded. Can't remember already.

What I also read of is hormones = organic carbon-based, and first time this protein came in . I am also very interested to see how protein can be skimmed from a non-marine tank.
RL threw a bomb out and let it bounce around and went into hibernation liao Perhaps really need to lim kopi in his house to get things clarify.

[CyberET]

I think on showing a picture of the protein skimmer, I rather not post it in the forum. If you like, you are welcome to visit my home to see it first hand.

y rather not post? PM me if its in inconvenient to mention the reason here.

Folks,
Any comment on RL's above statement. 

as for anti-growth hormones being protein based..

i've a vortex protein skimmer that i have been using on my koi pond for a yr now.. bought during Aquarama 2005 from white crane.

if it works.. i would have observed a huge growth after installation, which i didn't, my kois just maintained their size..

i purposely didn't change water to test it's effectiveness, only top up almost 10% a day due to evaporation during hot days.

yes, i do collect 2~3 pails of darker than urine liquid a day.


i tried increasing the amount i feed a day from 1kg to more than 3kg a day for 1/2 year. no obvious changes.

pond is crystal clear.

the only advantage is that it keeps hairy algae growth in check.

in the end, i concluded, nothing beats massive water change. everytime a 80% change is done on my 4~5ton pond, the kois growth increase for a week before the growth slows to a crawl again. before & after installation of a skimmer.

[The Matrix]

I am also very interested to see how protein can be skimmed from a non-marine tank. 

Hahahahaha ... ah goh, you going into the dark dark dark area of super arguement liao. Step out.

Protein float on surface wor ... someone will think that way.
Gill waste can be clear by sucking little water ASAP ... i wonder if I can use a vacuum cleaner to suck the air for a while after producing audible discharge of intestinal gas.

Anyone interest to watch Japan match over a nice cup of