Ranchu Lover's Grooming Method Options

[goldrush]

I have been sitting by the fence for far too long............

First for some references


Chlorine /chloramine I believe we had a superb and wonderful discussion here

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...503&hl=chlorine

growth hormones here

http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...1&hl=pheromones


ok as for protein skimmer,I think a better name would be fractionator as it removes more than just protein (DOC:not me but dissolved organic carbon)and it does not skim just off just the surface.You see the air bubbles are utilize to separate(fractionate)the dissolved matter from the water through foaming or frothing.Having said that,square guy is correct that protein skimmer works more appropriately in a marine setup.This is because the salinity simply increases the surface tension,which attracts the surfactants for eliminating purpose.In fresh water setup you need tremendous high pressure to fulfill this process which is simply not feasible.
So a protein skimmer removes all organic matter(not just proteins)which if not removed would undergo normal nitrification process ie ammonia>nitrite>nitrate

Now the interesting thing I need to emphasize is skimming does remove pheromones.Now this hormones are far more than just growth inhibitors as they are chemical communication that influence reproduction,feeding,behaviour and lots more in fishes.
So apart from suppressing growth, pheromones are found to suppress immunity, which can lead to increased incidence of disease and parasitic susceptibility.


Now as goldfish keepers we are well informed of the danger of ammonia and nitrites but as for nitrates we tend to overlook as it is always deem to be well tolerated and therefore less harmful to our fishes. High levels of nitrate in water can potentially cause the death of fish. To me nitrates are silent killers without much physical manifestation of any morbidity in your fish and often only detected when irreversible damage have been done.Over 30PPM of nitrate can inhibit growth, impair the immune system, cause stress, and reduce energy levels.For the experience keepers nitrates are irked at for causing“bleeding”of the veins of fins and possible shrinking wens.

With that I leave you with this classic song sung to the theme of American Pie(Don McClean)and let you draw your own conclusion before embarking on this hiherto uncharted territory.Is it going to be HARAKIRI or KAMIKAZE ..


God knows





So buy-buy, this RL guy
Drove our senses to the edges
And leave us all dry
He maybe champion one day with his tikus fries
Singin,That will be the day RG say good bye
That will be the day we can all cry…….

[gohks]

Will like to hear from RL how his protein skimmer work against science. Guess MIA liao

[Ranchu Lover]

Ranchu Lover,

I have seen you mentioning grooming many a times on AF and RG. RG forummers have been rather open with their grooming techniques, so I think it is about time you share with the everyone your planned grooming practices too. I am sure it will be beneficial to have a two-way knowledge sharing.

You see, it all started with this comment. I am just sharing my method as requested which I believe is not acceptable by most members here. Just let things be and continue with your own established method of keeping. I am not a doctor, a scientists or an expert in goldfish keeping. I am sharing without any authority or am I trying to convience anyone to follow my method.

From some of the comments made, I believe many of you here do not experience any form of goldfish mortality in your keeping method. With my method of keeping I have experienced some goldfish mortality.

If my method is wrong, just don't follow. I never claimed that it is the right method or the best method. With my limited resources, this method has worked well for me. May not be the best but as I have said before, I am still searching.

Frankly, I am still scratching my head and wondering with so many fish in my tub, my ranchu can still grow past the 8 inch length and my oranda to past the 12 inch length. Sorry guys, I really don't know why!

[desireless]

Aww, c'mon... You see RL, this is exactly why we've told you to share with us what your method is all about. If you don't know why, then this is the time to find out why. Who knows you could have an out-of-the-world discovery that will benefit the whole goldfish community? :

When or where else are you going to get your mysteries solved? Here we are, so many brains ready to crack for you. We've looked through your list and pointed out the questionable things which we're hoping that you can elaborate. I am curious to why you're not willing to show us some pictures? Why would you rather not defend your practice which you seem to have so much faith in? Right now because some details are not furbished with, there're still plenty of question marks in the air.

This is what discussions are for, afterall? Right? Some phenomena happens, and you don't how or why. Then you seek help from other experienced peers. Through intense discussion, your mysteries are solved. You benefit. So do your friends who would be so grateful to you for bringing it up for discussion.

[The Matrix]

RL, imagine if we are to make a trip to your place right now and ask a lot of questions, are you going to release your dogs and chase us out of the house ?

Maybe you have yet to encounter visitors that ask you questions, now u are facing some. I said many times before, there are many different types of goldfish keepers in the world. There are many practises as well. Each has their benefits and disadvantages. I am very interested to see how each method works.

Furthermore, you might not be talking to the right people that help you understand. Why ? Either now u sit on those trophies and figure out why many fish died and why some grow, or enhance your knowledge by seeking answer actively thru discussion.

Knowledge is gained if you open your mind.

[Ranchu Lover]

I understand your concerned for my goldfish well-being. Frankly, I am one person that likes to experiment. Even till today goldfish is still a hobby to me and it will never take center stage in my life however successful I may have been or will be. I can give up the hobby anytime and I can pick it back again anytime. I have done this before many many times already.

Not to worry about the dog in my home as I do not have any. Anyone is welcome to visit me anytime (provided I am available). Trust me, I am very receptive to new ideas and also new ways of doing things.

I am enclosing two pictures of this SVR that I bought from Rainbow recently for $18/-. The first picture was taken on May day and the second one about a month and a half later.

[yp212]

Common guys, give RL a break. You asked him questions, he answered liao. He already qualified that the methods worked for him and may not work for you. What more do you want? Does he owe you a living? Like he said, he is not obliged to answer or share any info. If you are not happy or have doubts on his methods, then use your own. He is even kind enough to open his house for your visit and give you some tips. What more do you want?

I have kept fished for many years, from the harder to keep discus to longkang fishes to goldfish. It's not an overnite gained experience. I learned along the way, and still have lot's to learn. There is no short-cut. Forum like this will help reduced mistakes and provide preventive measures but it will NEVER eliminate all your problems/questions unless you try it your own. A humble and willingness to learn attitude will carry us a long way...

[The Matrix]

so the discussion is shutoff ... oh well ...

yp212, have u think over the method mentioned and will u try it out ?

The effort from RL is not easily duplicated. Yeah, maybe a good method but there are many constraints to hobbyists. As a hobbyists, we have to learn the method, know our limitations and work on solutions.

In the forum like RG, we aimed to guide and provide relevant information and ensure suitability. Not everyone can use green water, nor can eveyone use a water-fish ratio of a 100L to 1 fish. There is no such thing as mainstream keeping method. 25 yrs ago, I am keeping 20++ goldfish and longkang guppies and many many snails ( ) in my 1.5ft tank. steady right ?

I definitely can't duplicate RL method. Not in my hdb flat where there is no direct sunlight. How ... direct water lor.

How about the vacuuming of waste constantly ... NO WAY ! I work from 9 to 9 and sometime 24 hours. Can RL recommend a better solution for people who work long hours ? I gave up my massive 50 tanks of discus breeding and over 100 containers of betta and 15000 betta fries just becos of this.

I know the good intention of RL, but this forum is no longer on a local "broadcasting" network. I can just take a cab to his place. BUT we have friends from all over the world. Can these friends fly to Singapore just to visit his house ? RG is a platform to make great discussion ( maybe some will think as grilling sessions), information provider and knowledge retention.

And that's where we come in to ensure there are sufficient information to retain in a thread specially open to hold RL's grooming method.

[Kinder]

Given that RL a hobbyist just like all bros here and his grooming methods might work for him & do wonders; which we all might not be getting with most of our fishes. But what about those well known/successful breeders locally or from Japan or even Greet, How does their grooming method work? Do their methods & RLs have any common ground or similarities?

OR is it a question of good genes, its that known breeders are successful coz their fishes are pure breed (strong genes hence less requirements/time needed intaking care of their spawn), when compared to lower grade fish. Maybe this is the case with RL, by some stroke of luck he might be picking out good quality fishes (with strong genes). How about if anyone of you exchanged (for set period of time) one for you fish with RL and see if there are any improvements after that set period of time. Just a thought. Its all about taking change in order to learn.

Cheers.

[Ranchu Lover]

Given that RL a hobbyist just like all bros here and his grooming methods might work for him & do wonders; which we all might not be getting with most of our fishes. But what about those well known/successful breeders locally or from Japan or even Greet, How does their grooming method work? Do their methods & RLs have any common ground or similarities?

OR is it a question of good genes, its that known breeders are successful coz their fishes are pure breed (strong genes hence less requirements/time needed intaking care of their spawn), when compared to lower grade fish. Maybe this is the case with RL, by some stroke of luck he might be picking out good quality fishes (with strong genes). How about if anyone of you exchanged (for set period of time) one for you fish with RL and see if there are any improvements after that set period of time. Just a thought. Its all about taking change in order to learn.

Cheers.

Maybe God is always blessing me with good quality fish at special discounted prices. Can it be that I am always so fortunate, always so lucky to be buying all the good fish right? Even a $2/- Tikus from a relatively unknown LFS in my neigbourhood can suddenly produce good genes goldfish. Maybe I have magic hands.

Is there anything wrong with the ranchu that I have kept for forty odd days? It has grown from 8.5 cm to 11.5 cm in that period. Kept in the same tub with all the other fish that I have got. No special treatment. Eat same food, sleep same time and all happy playing together. Well I need some feed-back from the experts here.

Please don't rate me with the master breeders of Japan and China. I am no where near these masters, as I have mentioned before, I am just another hobbyist, probably a very lucky one at it. Winning some prizes does not put me into the same league with the experts.

I have been showing many of my fish is RG and AF for many months now, many of you would have seen how the fish have developed over the months.

[Kinder]

Maybe God is always blessing me with good quality fish at special discounted prices. Can it be that I am always so fortunate, always so lucky to be buying all the good fish right? Even a $2/- Tikus from a relatively unknown LFS in my neigbourhood can suddenly produce good genes goldfish. Maybe I have magic hands.

Im was just trying to reason, dont take it in a wrong way. I believe that if a fish is known to have good genes (pure breed) then it has more chances of growing BIGGER than a fish that doesnt posses those genes. But if you say that your fishes are of that known good quality and have been bought only for few dollars and dispite that your still able to achieve success with your grooming methods. Then there must to something in your grooming method thats assisting your fishes in growth. And what im telling is its worth carring ouy few experiments, maybe a fish thats not doing well or is stunned or other combinations might be worth adopting and trying it out in your grooming method system. And with those result you might be able to pin point what exactly is the sources of this success. Again its just a thought!

[desireless]

...You asked him questions, he answered liao. He already qualified that the methods worked for him and may not work for you. What more do you want? Does he owe you a living? Like he said, he is not obliged to answer or share any info. If you are not happy or have doubts on his methods, then use your own. He is even kind enough to open his house for your visit and give you some tips. What more do you want?
....

I will have to refer you to these clear-water-system articles:

CP's 7-foot tank setup
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1901

Geert Coppens' Ranchu House
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...&blogid=3&eid=8

Craig Smith's Ranchu House
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2819

Not shy to even use jwhtan's article here:
http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=201958

These methods not only worked, but a look at the articles, you can understand HOW and WHY they worked. There's no need for 3000 words. One look at the setup and equipment, it can easily convince ANY reader. Of course I am not demanding RL to do something like that since he is a busy man with all those routine to do. But as you can see from many members asking, we are very interested to take a look at how his setup is done. For example, how his overcrowded tank work with little aeration.

Based on just words and claims, it is pretty hard to convince keen learners like us on how one's method can really work. Instead of adopting the methods that people say "very good", "useful", "effective", etc, we should pry further to understand the mechanism behind. In the unfortunate case when something goes wrong, with your strong understanding of the system, you can quickly arrest the cause of the problem. This is the art of goldfish keeping.

Of course I am NOT saying that RL's method sure 100% won't work. Like he said, he has 1 or 2 fishes that benefited from the method. But we are very interested to know why his method work on those 2 fishes. There must be something else that he forgot to mention and is not known to us because based on the list, there are just too many question marks.

[white horse T1]

some time i wonder whether a moment of glory will prove anything.

Topic of Controversy
the controversy and debate always sparkled off when an established method of fish rearing is ridiculed
e.g. why rear in green water when one cannot see and appreciate. i have better things to do than that.
see my fish lives in CW and still grow big big and win prizes.

- why must there always be i win u lose situation.....
-did anyone ridicule all CW rearers that they cannot rear champion fishes before?
-someone use undergravel filtration before here and it works wonders for him....i am sure he is still active here and was not ridiculed .

CW method
so what is the method that could be have the best of both worlds - enjoy the sight of fish and still grow fat and pretty. - Clear Water Flushing method. so how it works and why it works. Talk is cheap, until today CW remains as mystery as many information seem to be withold back. is this The Thais CW methodology? why wrap it with mystery? what is wrong with a simple illustration and photo? (surely there should be a camera somewhere) to conclude how it works: Not clear and even originator also scratching head.

Fish for Competition
It is no secret pplp will buy fish for competition. But more controvesy and contradiction if winning is attributed to a particular grooming skill of the owner rather than the selection skill and buying power of the owner prior to competition. It is no secret that sponsor for the event will be more than willing to sell winning fish under their company flagship. Having deep pockets got its priveleges.

Challenge
so talk is real cheap, 上擂台挑 仗 战like 霍 元甲show, then u know who is right and number 1.

Competition is not just a platform to showcase one fish but also to bind hobbists together in the appreciation of the fishes and share knowledge
.
w/o embracing the true values as above, Victory is hollow and glory is momentary, after a while it will be forgotten. hope test of time will tell...

in the movie, 霍 元甲 died during the match but he won the hearts of his opponent and people.

仁者无 敌

Chinese Rusty alr...

This post has been edited by white horse T1: Mon, 10 Jul 2006 7:10 pm

[Toji]

Wow Bro WhiteHse!! Good point !! (But the Chinese wordings got one word u use wrongly)...