Green Water In Bio-filter Setup, Is it possible? Options

[Toji]

Wow to let both run together man u msut really be able to balance the system man.... to let your Bio filter run without competing and wiping out the green water...... I salute u!!

I was thinking maybe letting green water to run with Mech-filter is a good idea liao....

Now waitng for setup to be right to do a green water method with partial WC along the way b4 flushing and reseeding it.... trying to optimise the 'cleaness' of the water..... dunno got will work well anot....

[CyberET]

don't choke the filter

[gohks]

Question is whether this equilibrium will be met like trying to balance an inverted pyramid
Maybe we should try adding bio-starter to green water and try to measure ammonia at night

[goldrush]

Equilibrium certainly at one point will be met but the question is how long it can be maintained at a reasonable range of balance with so much dynamism of multifactors that are everchanging in such a closed system.

The interplay of these factors will result in the ratio of the effect green against the effect of biofilter constantly changing and exerting their influences in a given space.

In theory,if one throws in a few biofilter(eg sponge filter) in an established green water,wouldn't these halt the bloom to a certain extend as to curb its proliferation to a critical level where water changes are mandatory to reduce its detrimental influences? Just another of my proposition without any proof of its success.

[top_view_ranchu]

The trick is to have the correct amount of fish, amount of biofilter, understanding the max level of green, when to change water and correct amount to seed.

[Charles Lam]

A simple explanation to the "BEFORE 2pm rule" is to ensure that there is enough time given to let the fishes digest and pass out whatever diet you have fed them in a day, and to let the algae work on the wastes, before the night comes.

I also do not disagree with the possibility of finding that "balance" for green water and bio-filtration to co-exist. It is possible. The problem is, you must find that balance. Like Goh pointed out, too much of either one will eliminate the other. And there is this grey area where both "seem" to co-exist, but you are not getting the "correct" algae/green. So the control must be very precise.

In my pond, I manage to achieve a co-existence between the two, green water and bio filter.

[goldrush]

So am I right to say some of us here have achieved it.(TVR and Charles)

So in order to achieve this purported balanced ecosystem,one must allow the correct processes to occur with respect to

1)the number of fishes,
2)the amount and intensity of green (plants/algae) attained and maintained
3)all micro-organisms.....the numbers of biofilters or substrates for their existence

Each system I believe has its own "balance point" which takes careful monitoring and maitenance to achieve.

Perhaps this perfectly matched and balanced system is something that we keepers have been striving for......(some may have found it)but for the majority of us,this continual search for perfection in our water maintenance and indirectly our fishes is what make goldfish keeping the pleasure that is !!!!!!

[top_view_ranchu]

I feel that its simpler for biofilter to work with wall algae, coz you know that the filtration is working/kick started by not having the 3rd party(green water) appearing. While filtration and green water need alot of trial and error to achieve perfection.

[desireless]

In my pond, I manage to achieve a co-existence between the two, green water and bio filter.

That's interesting. What bio filter are you using? Are you sure that it is cycled? What is the colour of your green water?

I don't suppose you mean this, do you?


What are your results on these?
http://www.rafflesgold.com/forums/index.ph...indpost&p=44714

[infocus]

What if I increase the ammonia level by feeding more? Will that helps to maintain the bio-load at a level enough for both green water and bio-filter?

And what is the difference of jade green green water? Can someone shed some light?

[The Matrix]

Did you forgotten what is the purpose of using green water in the first place. Why should you increase ammonia, that would harm your fish, for the purpose of maintaining the green water. Might as well go back to clear water.

[infocus]

Did you forgotten what is the purpose of using green water in the first place. Why should you increase ammonia, that would harm your fish, for the purpose of maintaining the green water. Might as well go back to clear water.

I asked this because I want to feed more to increase the growth but at the same time do less water change. What I meant is to increase the ammonia level just enough to maintain both green water and bio-filter, without affecting the health of the fishes. But what is the level just nice for that??

That's why we are talking about the possibility of having both to compliment each other so that I reiterate, "to increase the growth but still do less water change". If there is no way of having an equilibrium in this sense, then I think green water and bio-filter can't exist together.

[goldrush]

I read with amazement on some of the responses with regards to green water.

Are we missing something here??????


Green water are principally green algae with “restricted” amount of beneficial bacteria, which in the presence of sunlight assume photosynthetic mode of nutrition(as in higher plants)which we deemed as on autotrophic mode.In reduced light they switch to heterotrophic mode and consume organic nutrients!!!!.So as I read further then how does algae consume AMMONIA????? as many seems to err on this concept.
Algae does not in anyway enter into the nitrification cycle except the last pathway where nitrates are utilize as in higher plants.Can any kind souls here enlighten me on something which I’m not aware of and quote scientific literatures to support your claim.

So what do you think in green water rid your pond/aquarium of your harmful ammonia if the above holds true???

Time to put on your thinking cap boys….

[gohks]

I read with amazement on some of the responses with regards to green water.

Are we missing something here??????
Green water are principally green algae with “restricted” amount of beneficial bacteria, which in the presence of sunlight assume photosynthetic mode of nutrition(as in higher plants)which we deemed as on autotrophic mode.In reduced light they switch to heterotrophic mode and consume organic nutrients!!!!.So as I read further then how does algae consume AMMONIA????? as many seems to err on this concept.
Algae does not in anyway enter into the nitrification cycle except the last pathway where nitrates are utilize as in higher plants.Can any kind souls here enlighten me on something which I’m not aware of and quote scientific literatures to support your claim.

So what do you think in green water rid your pond/aquarium of your harmful ammonia if the above holds true???

Time to put on your thinking cap boys….

Doc,
What we learnt is from what the "expert" says Don't tell me is the blind leading the blind. I learnt this from Vermillion as they state in their web:-

"What that is needed are strong sunlight and enough goldfish to provide ammonia – the food source for the algae."

[gohks]

I asked this because I want to feed more to increase the growth but at the same time do less water change. What I meant is to increase the ammonia level just enough to maintain both green water and bio-filter, without affecting the health of the fishes. But what is the level just nice for that??

That's why we are talking about the possibility of having both to compliment each other so that I reiterate, "to increase the growth but still do less water change". If there is no way of having an equilibrium in this sense, then I think green water and bio-filter can't exist together.

Sounds like free lunch No need to resort to this sort of "balance" condition in goldfish keeping.

The benefits of green water already well documented and need not further elaborate.

As for clear cycled water, there are still doubts of whether we can achived good result. From my limited experience, as long as you can achieve these you are in pretty good shape:-

i) Keep the Ammonia to zero:- easily achived in cycled tank with sufficient bio filtration;
ii) Keep the ph > 7.5
iii) Keep the cycled by-product (e.g. nitrate) in check:- this can be acheived by algae, plants or nitrate removal.
iv) Dilute the growth inhibitor (not sure if it really exists) by having absorption material (carbon), if you don't like water change.
v) Having sufficeint sunlight:- this one most of us do not have resulting in poor result.
vi) Feed the fish alot to ensure sufficient growth rate. Do not know how to quantify but make sure your fish not too fat. Also skill of good water quality control must be good in order to feed more (this is the fallacy that most of the people do not have,e.g feed more -> poor water quality -> fish sick, feed less to ensure good water quality -> fish does not grow and weaken. Thing to muster here is how to achieve both (easily done if you try hard, there is really free lunch ).
vii) Provide more space for the fish.
viii) Select a good fish. Follow the QT rules.
ix) Ensure that your fish not falling sick. Well balance conditions (the aboves) provide good health to your fishes and they should never sick. Treating sick fish is fire fight and is too late.

If you have a good control of the aboves, you should be doing well. The others like water temp (as long as not too much flutuation), salinity... are secondary. Keeping goldfish is that "easy". ;)