Green Water In Bio-filter Setup, Is it possible? Options

[ranchu8]

When I wrote about biofilm in this first page of this topic few recognise the revolution it has caused in our human fraternities especially microbiological sciences,medical as well its pathological influences.Now the concept has spread to our aquatic keeping and pond culture.We were made to believe and still grasp upon the old belief that majority of the bacteria whether beneficial or non beneficial practically thrive only in biofilter.WRONG!

Let me refer all to this thread where biofilm is meticulously explained with pond culture in mind and why it is practically impossible to eradicate your BB even in green water .So they must co exist whether like it or not.It is just a matter of balance in this enclosed ecosystem

Here's the thread

http://www.mvangel.com/microbe/white.htm
good nite

hi, good point; accepting that in green water there is some beneficial bacteria in it, how does it assist the usual green water keeper in practice since amount is likely not substantial ie need airstone in the dark and insufficient b bacteria to work in the night. I think there is a rare no if at all who can keep both in equilibrium such that beneficial bacteria can work in the night or sufficient amount of algae for substantial feed. For green water, the amount of algae is not constant or invariably not constant. In short, what would you say is the application from the lesson above?

[gohks]

hi, good point; accepting that in green water there is some beneficial bacteria in it, how does it assist the usual green water keeper in practice since amount is likely not substantial ie need airstone in the dark and insufficient b bacteria to work in the night. I think there is a rare no if at all who can keep both in equilibrium such that beneficial bacteria can work in the night or sufficient amount of algae for substantial feed. For green water, the amount of algae is not constant or invariably not constant. In short, what would you say is the application from the lesson above?

Unless somebody willing to measure level of ammonia at night (after heavy feeding past 2pm), this is still thereotical

[goldrush]

Beneficial bacteria can grow on any submerged surface, not just inside your filter. The biofilm, which grows on the sides and bottom of the pond should be respected and its importance to proper and complete reduction of nitrogen should not be underestimated. This "biofilm" often complements and sometimes compensates your bio filter.So do not view them as competitors in any green water culture but I think you should think of them as an added adjuvant in out processing your nitrogenous wastes. How you can achieve it and to experience the best of both worlds would be like what TVR had replied……. a lot of experiment plus trial and error and perhaps the greatest challenge would be to maintain on that mode in the presence of so much ever changing influences.(feeding,fish,water changes,sunshine etc etc)

[YLD]

Hi Doc,
In my opinion, not sponge filter. Coral chip's a must!
regards,
David Hou

David,

May I ask why coral chip is a must?

YLD

[YLD]

Sounds like free lunch No need to resort to this sort of "balance" condition in goldfish keeping.

ii) Keep the ph > 7.5

Hi Bro Goh,

Can i check why keep pH > 7.5?

YLD

[top_view_ranchu]

David,

May I ask why coral chip is a must?

YLD

Bro,
To maintain a higher pH.
Do you know why you're using Baking Soda?

regards,
David Hou

[YLD]

Bro,
To maintain a higher pH.
Do you know why you're using Baking Soda?

regards,
David Hou

Baking soda help to reduce the pH fluctuation, other words increase kH.

I have a couple of questions.

1) In your experience, any diff between coral chip and baking soda?

2) Do u think the coral chip help to house BB?

Thanks.

YLD

This post has been edited by YLD: Tue, 01 Aug 2006 9:07 pm

[YLD]

Hi Bro Goh,

Can i check why keep pH > 7.5?

>>>Pls ignore, i realised its a matter of goldfish preference!

YLD

[top_view_ranchu]

Beneficial bacteria can grow on any submerged surface, not just inside your filter. The biofilm, which grows on the sides and bottom of the pond should be respected and its importance to proper and complete reduction of nitrogen should not be underestimated. This "biofilm" often complements and sometimes compensates your bio filter.So do not view them as competitors in any green water culture but I think you should think of them as an added adjuvant in out processing your nitrogenous wastes. How you can achieve it and to experience the best of both worlds would be like what TVR had replied……. a lot of experiment plus trial and error and perhaps the greatest challenge would be to maintain on that mode in the presence of so much ever changing influences.(feeding,fish,water changes,sunshine etc etc)

Hi Doc,
I'm glad you agree that lots of trial & error are needed, while some choose to believe that this can be spoon fed.
Btw, when did moderators become baby sitters?

Regards,
David Hou

Baking soda help to reduce the pH fluctuation, other words increase kH.

I have a couple of questions.

1) In your experience, any diff between coral chip and baking soda?

2) Do u think the coral chip help to house BB?

Thanks.

YLD

Bro,

1) Coral chip, I believe is used to maintain a longer period. Probably for those who change water not so often. While BS is use by frequent water changers, coz BS don't last very long. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

2) Very chium leh! I suppose they do house BB, but definitely too little an amount to hold alot right?

Btw, I no longer use any of these. I change my water so often, that the pH do not have enough time to fluctuate!

Regards,
David Hou

[YLD]

Hi Doc,
I'm glad you agree that lots of trial & error are needed, while some choose to believe that this can be spoon fed.
Btw, when did moderators become baby sitters?

Regards,
David Hou
Bro,

1) Coral chip, I believe is used to maintain a longer period. Probably for those who change water not so often. While BS is use by frequent water changers, coz BS don't last very long. Pls correct me if I'm wrong.

2) Very chium leh! I suppose they do house BB, but definitely too little an amount to hold alot right?

Btw, I no longer use any of these. I change my water so often, that the pH do not have enough time to fluctuate!

Regards,
David Hou

Thanks David,

1) Your vast experience certainly help to arrive at these answers, if u allow me to ask further, is it true that BS has limitation in buffer pH and how long, roughly, can BS provide buffering?

2) Seriously i also do not know, my only guess is the porous surfaces on the coral chip probably provide some room for housing BB....who know BB might not want to house in due to high "salt"


YLD

[top_view_ranchu]

Thanks David,

1) Your vast experience certainly help to arrive at these answers, if u allow me to ask further, is it true that BS has limitation in buffer pH and how long, roughly, can BS provide buffering?

2) Seriously i also do not know, my only guess is the porous surfaces on the coral chip probably provide some room for housing BB....who know BB might not want to house in due to high "salt"
YLD

Ben,
You're welcome!
1) I guess Ling will tell you that pH still fluctuate tremendously with BS added. I strongly believe there's limitation, but I do not know how long BS can provide buffering. Can anyone help?

2) Are you trying to house BB by coral chip? Is there a problem you're trying to solve? Maybe you'll like to go straight to the point, and probably it's easier that way than to try figuring out the scenerio.

David Hou

[YLD]

Ben,
You're welcome!
1) I guess Ling will tell you that pH still fluctuate tremendously with BS added. I strongly believe there's limitation, but I do not know how long BS can provide buffering. Can anyone help?

2) Are you trying to house BB by coral chip? Is there a problem you're trying to solve? Maybe you'll like to go straight to the point, and probably it's easier that way than to try figuring out the scenerio.

David Hou

2) Housing of BB in coral chip could be added advantage. No problem, thing are ok. Just some questions.

Thanks

[top_view_ranchu]

2) Housing of BB in coral chip could be added advantage. No problem, thing are ok. Just some questions.

Thanks

Hello Ben,
If housing BB is your concern, I think coral chip will be too small an amount.
You might want to consider using a corner filter fill with bio-homes? Or those Ikea utensils holder with 1st layer bio-filter and inside with bio-homes and airstone?

Regards,
David Hou

[YLD]

Hello Ben,
If housing BB is your concern, I think coral chip will be too small an amount.
You might want to consider using a corner filter fill with bio-homes? Or those Ikea utensils holder with 1st layer bio-filter and inside with bio-homes and airstone?

Regards,
David Hou

I have one such holder on stand-by!

Thanks!

[goldrush]

With high stocking densities, and water supply that is not alkaline enough, it is very hard to maintain an acceptable alkalinity level with just coral chips. Furthermore in Singapore our water is not alkaline enough,so any water change is insufficient to maintain that required alkalinity .So you need to "artificially inseminate" it through adding baking soda.

The bioconverions of fish poop and ammonia generates acid and consumes pond alkalinity. That is why the alkalinity continually drops in most fish ponds and requires adjustment in some way.
For those who are not aware of what is going on .Here is another food for thought .A mathematical breakdown of how much food generate how much ammonia and the required sodium bicarbonate to maintain alkalinity.

Now it has been found that roughly 450g of ammonia converted by a biofilter have to consume about 6500g of baking soda to maintain alkalinity.

Now 450g of fish food would generate approximately 135 g of Ammonia and with the given above bioconversion ,1500g(1.5kg)of food would need approximately about 6500g of baking soda to maintain alkalinity.So if you have fed some 50 g of accumulated food before the next water change you would need about 200g of bicarbonate to maintain alkalinity.